How did you get involved with lorries?

Tim – I blame Steve, it is his fault. Mind you I have always liked military vehicles and saw my first Jeep when we lived on the Isles of Scilly nearly 40 years ago. I decided I wanted one when I saw one for sale at the St Agnes traction engine rally about 4 years later. We didn’t actually get one until 1992 though, which again was down to Steve who found one for sale.

Steve – I suppose Tim is right in that it is my fault that we started playing with lorries. Father’s interest was predominantly steam locomotives which transferred to me. However, when I went to college there was no railway interest but the students had a 1902 James and Browne motor car and I took an active part in looking after that. When I left, a veteran car was financially out of the question but a veteran lorry was attainable. I advertised for a ‘project’ and was offered the Thornycroft J type which I purchased. If I knew then what I know now, I would never have touched it! There just weren’t enough bits although, eighteen years later, we have enough to do the job. Shortly after it arrived, the Autocar UF 21 was advertised and, much to my amazement, Dad bought it after I had gone to see it. We haven’t looked back since!

Tony - I always had a keen interest in things mechanical, and as a lad, had ambitions to go to sea as a Marine Engineer. Poor eyesight (with standards higher then than they are nowadays) stopped that and I drifted into a career in Banking. But of course, I never lost interest in machines of any kind, and the two boys grew up in this sort of environment. They were naturally similarly interested, (in the genes, I suppose) and our interests fed off one another over the years. During my formative years, I was interested as much as any other boy in lorries, and was always familiar with the local ones. So when Steve developed a closer interest after he graduated, it was a natural progression.

How did you develop your engineering skills?

Tim – I guess on the job training from Steve. When the Jeep arrived he bought me a manual and a set of spanners and said “off you go”.

Steve – It’s all Fathers fault! He used to work on a preserved locomotive. When the bank posted him to the Isles of Scilly, there were no railways with which he could get involved so he declared ‘I am going to build a miniature steam locomotive’, bought himself a lathe and a book on how to use it and then went and did it.  I am very fortunate in that he is extremely tolerant and patient and was prepared to take the time to explain everything to me. (I was five then). Veteran lorries use very similar types of components, just a little bigger.

Tony – A bit of trial and error, coupled with a little bit of common sense, reading, listening to people and sticking to it. If anybody feels like learning some basic skills, join a Model Engineering Society – you will find people there similarly inclined with always somebody ready to answer the question -”How do I do this?” Steve was just five years old when we moved to Scilly, and he would spend every moment that he could with me in the workshop – so I guess that he learned a lot from my endeavours. It was no real surprise that he said to me when he reached the age of twelve that he wanted to build his own railway locomotive and I was glad to encourage him. The locomotive, a coal-fired, 3 1/2” Gauge Fowler Derby 4F Tender Locomotive was finished when he was seventeen – he built the lot including the copper boiler with only minimal help from me. What impressed me most of all was that he stuck to it over those years of building without losing interest or being diverted.

1917 Autocar UF21

Please tell us about your vehicle collection, past and present, and is there a particular vehicle you are most proud or fond of?

Tim – Well it is all present as we have never sold anything. Current vehicle ownership (in order of purchase) is:

1917 Thornycroft J Type

1917 Autocar UF21

1944 Willys Jeep

1917 Peerless TC4

1917 Peerless TC4

1917 Autocar UF21

1918 FWD Model B

1918 Dennis A type

I don’t think that I have a particular favourite, as I love them all for different reasons. I think when the Dennis is finished I might be most proud of that as we really have done the most work on that one and brought it back from a pile of scrap.

Steve – The Thornycroft is going to be a ‘Bitsa’ but will be very nearly all Thornycroft parts. The first parts we acquired worked in Wales and the chassis worked around Shaftsbury. It is going to be a GS wagon again. The first Autocar worked at Cambrai in France as a coal delivery lorry after the War right up until 1954 when the owner retired. Imported into the UK (only the Brits would want it!) it didn’t sell at auction and we later saw it advertised in a magazine. A photo from Bart Vanderveen has confirmed that it was one of those used by the British as a water tanker. The Jeep was a response to Tim’s grumble, one day that he didn’t know what to do with himself. Knowing he liked military vehicles I said if he fancied a Jeep, I would go halves with him. Within two weeks, he had found one (in Pennsylvania!) and my wallet was noticeably lighter. It has proven a very good buy as it has given Tim a lot of confidence in looking after it and we have done a lot of things together as well. The Peerless was advertised and we went off to look at it. It was the remains of seven vehicles from which one was being rebuilt. One of the seven had been complete but the owner had played a mix and match game and the identity was lost. We have since acquired two more chassis and now have enough bits to assemble two. The second Autocar came as the result of hearing about it coming up for auction. Dad went to see it and take photos as we had never seen another and wondered how well we had done in making replacement parts. He ended up buying it! We have since found out that it came from the US in the 1980s where it had been on display in the Lazy Susan saloon in Virginia. The FWD, like Autocar 1, after it was disposed of at the end of the war, worked all its life in France, hauling circus trailers around until 1970 when it was abandoned in a scrap yard in Lyons. After fourteen years there, it was imported into the UK and went through two or three owners receiving little more than a coat of paint and a new set of tyres before we took it on. Finally, the Dennis. This was a collection of bits assembled by a dear friend of ours over some years. He put together nearly an entire kit, barring the differential, but realised that he was a collector rather than a restorer and was never going to finish it. I fancied a Dennis and felt it was time we tackled something British.

Like Tim, I love them all!

Tony – I am very fond of them all, too, and feel very proud of what we have achieved with our limited resources. If I had to chose just one, then I would go for the Military Autocar, the first one that we completed and from which we have had so much pleasure. The first long run that we did in that one soon after completion was the Bournemouth to Bath Run – about 90 miles on a rainy day with no cab protection, but it behaved beautifully, averaging about 15mph and got us there safely and without incident.

Who does what in your team?

Tim – Horrible, messy jobs preferred. Better if they are mundane as well. I also do a lot of painting, mainly because I can fit bits in the car, take them away, clean them up, paint them, bring them back and bolt them on. I am currently working on the various lamps that we have acquired the Dennis.

Steve – We all do whatever we can although I dislike painting and am not especially good at it. I like making things and in particular puzzling out how to do the tricky ones with our limited equipment. Turning a four foot steering column in my Myford 3½” lathe was definitely pushing my luck!

Tony – I will have a go at anything, but Steve is very much the co-ordinator and he is aware of my limitations! So as the project progresses, I am delegated to do this or “make that bit” or “prepare that” or whatever is necessary. The big Colchester Lathe lives at my place, so such things as skimming 14” diameter brake drums come back to me. Repetitive jobs such as making new Shackle Pins and Clevis' and so on are very much down to me.

How long can a project take in real terms? Is there a long period of collecting bit before you start?

Tim – An average time from start to finish is about 3 to 4 years, although the Dennis will probably take 5 by the time it is finished due to the amount of work needed. The second Autocar and FWD were quicker because I was still living at home and spent most nights doing something. As I am now 150 miles away it makes it a bit awkward. As for collecting bits, well finding any bit at all is a reason to rejoice. Let Steve tell you about his Thorny.

Steve. – The Dennis has already taken five years and we still only have a chassis and four wheels!

Parts are a problem with these old vehicles as availability is essentially nil. When starting one of these projects you have to expect to repair or manufacture every single component as any 90 year old lorry will generally have had 30 years of hard use followed by sixty years in storage, often outside. If you can’t tackle it yourselves then the cost will be astronomical. 

The three lorries we have done were pretty well complete so we had repairable parts or patterns for new ones. The difficulties start is when you try to build a vehicle from scratch such as the Thornycroft J.  The front of CC1720 was built into a building on the top of Penmaenmawr and set to drive a water pump. At some time the engine was replaced with a Chrysler 70 unit and later on the radiator was removed. The parts were rescued by Mike Jones of Ruthin who hired a bulldozer to get them out. He acquired a pair of front wheels and an axle and sold the lot onto us. We later heard of another chassis on Salisbury Plain which had been used as the frame for a shepherds hut. This was found and a purchase negotiated giving us a frame, four wheels and a steering box. Then after some time on the telephone, I heard of the bottom half of an engine at the Lincolnshire Vintage Vehicle Club headquarters. I picked that up on the way to a wedding in Hull. At this time, Hampshire County Council Museums Service was rebuilding a J and we got to know the conservators well. I borrowed their half-shafts and made drawings from which replacements could be made. I also borrowed their cylinder block and made drawings for that too but I must admit that the thought of making the patterns for it filled me with some trepidation. They needed a radiator for theirs so we shared the cost of the patterns and we both had a set of castings from them. Similarly for the inlet manifold. Then some eleven years after I bought the first parts, I had a telephone call out of the blue. ‘I’ve got a Thornycroft engine, do you want it?’

‘Yes please. Where is it?’

‘Auckland’.

‘Bishop Auckland?’

‘No! New Zealand!’

That duly arrived a few weeks later and is exactly the right engine. This leaves us only the differential as a major missing component after eighteen years collecting bits. Everything else can be made. Does anybody out there have a big worm drive differential looking for a good home?

Tony – We don't think of time very much – it is just a case of “plugging away” at it. We just know that no job is going to be done overnight, and as the pleasure is in doing it, then it doesn't really matter

What are you working on at the moment and what have you got in the pipeline?

Tim – The Dennis. You have probably seen the restoration of this in progress on the HMVF forum within the British vehicles section. As for what comes next, Peerless or Thornycroft – what is it to be chaps?

Steve – Well, the Dennis is number one project although I am building a batch of miniature locomotives for my model club and various friends. Having to earn a living really gets in the way too. Next project? Probably a Peerless unless a Thornycroft differential turns up in the near future.

Tony – We have no thoughts of acquiring any more as we have enough to keep us going for many years. The Dennis restoration is really enthusing us all and we look forward to completing that one. As things stand at the moment, the Peerless is the next logical one to do as we have everything for it. If a Thornycroft Differential turned up before we complete the Dennis, then there might be a re-think.

Although you don’t confine yourselves to military vehicles, what is so special about the Great War period for you?

Tim – Something different from everyone else. The technology is a lot more basic meaning that we can just about do everything ourselves. No one can ever tell us that we have got something wrong, because hardly anybody knows what is right.

Steve – The Great War lorries have a level of engineering that I understand and can replicate myself which is my great pleasure. It is also nice to be a little different. The more we do of these, the more interest I am taking in the War in general and how it was prosecuted. I only wish I had asked my Grandfather more as he was gassed at Ypres.

Tony - I grew up during the Second World War and really took only a secondary interest in the First World War until we became involved with these old army trucks. Undoubtedly, the more you learn and find out, the more you want to know about the history attached to them. To start with, the level of 90 years old engineering is impressive beyond belief, and when something is taken to bits that has been together for that length of time and was made without the clever and sophisticated tools that are available nowadays, it really is quite inspiring. And then to think that men went to war in these lorries. We found out that when the Americans came into the War in 1917, they were short of motor transport and quite a number of British Trucks were loaned to them – including many Dennis'. When we took one of our many Dennis chassis to bits, we found a Doughboy's button lodged in the grease and muck between two chassis members – so could that Truck have been one that had been loaned to the Americans? Our growing interest in the War took us to Ypres last year to see the Menin Gate and the First Word War Battlefields, and it is something that I would recommend to anybody who has not been there to do.

What would you say were the most important innovations in lorry design from that period and who would you say is most influential in terms of a designer or company?

Tim – Oh that is an easy one. Otto Zachow and William Besserdich. Founders of the FWD Corporation and designers of the Model B. The precursor to todays four wheel drive vehicles.

 
Steve – By the time of the Great War, we are into the second generation of motor transport. An acceptable level of reliability has been achieved and sufficient power, usually 40hp, is being installed to make them useful load haulers. In terms of a single innovation, Tim is probably right. However I think the most impressive thing to come out of it all was the standardised US army truck. The Liberty B. From original concept to running prototype took only ten weeks and by the end of the war, 9,452 had been built using components from fifteen different companies. This project started in 1917.

Tony – I don't really think that I can add to that.

How useful is the internet for finding parts or information?

Tim – Fantastic. I made so many contacts and found various crucial parts. Probably one of the best ones was an original Peerless carb. I never thought that we would ever get one. This simply could not have happened without the internet.

Steve – Tim is the internet king and has found manuals, parts and some wonderful postcards. It is a great tool.

Tony – Yes, Tim seems to have the way with it and comes up with all sorts of contacts and information from people all over the world. I really would not know how to start! I would not be at all surprised if he told us one day that he located a Thornycroft Differential in South Georgia or somewhere!

The old chestnut: What is your favourite tank?

Tim – The US licence built version of the French designed FT17, powered by a Buda engine. Two of these recently turned up in Afghanistan. The Panther is quite nice too.

Steve – The FT17 has a degree of charm and the MkIV is wonderful. In terms of good looks, the Panther has it though.

Tony – I really do not know a lot about tanks, but I do remember seeing a large number – about fifteen, I think, of Shermans driving down through the narrow West Street in Penryn, Cornwall, one after the other at about the time of D Day. A truly impressive sight for a small boy, and that image has remained with me all my life. So if I had to answer your question on my limited knowledge, then it must be a Sherman!

Can you recommend a favourite museum or collection to our members?

Tim – The Big Red One museum at Cantigny near Chicago.

Steve – I have two favourites: the Tank Museum at Bovington and the Shuttleworth Collection at Biggleswade. However, I would also like to recommend the Royal Logistics Corps Museum at Princess Royal Barracks, Camberley.

Tony – I was fortunate enough to visit the Berliet Collection in the South of France just a few years ago – it is a private collection that is open to the public on occasion. Apart from early French Military vehicles of various makes, they also have some early American ones and is well worth a visit if anybody should be in that area at the right time.

How well do you think the Great War is represented in the MV world?

Tim – By my calculation there are over 60 surviving WW1 trucks in the UK. More than most people would have thought I am sure. How often do you see these? Very rarely if ever. They are awkward to move around, as economical as a tank and generally slower. People are not generally interested in them, so they gather dust in sheds. There are three at Duxford all in running order and I have never seen any of them move under their own power. It is a great shame, but there is little enthusiasm to take them out by their owners. However, saying that there are several other WW1 trucks that I can think of that are currently under restoration.

Steve – Not very well really. Tim’s figures are right for vehicles in general. However only about 18 are complete and in military colours. Most are in museums or are owned by commercial vehicle people rather than military vehicle people. I asked the MVT registrar how many Great War vehicles were in the club and the reply then was ten including a model T, two bicycles and a horse drawn vehicle. The rest were ours so there is not a lot about.

Tony -I guess it is represented sufficiently to cater for the interest that there is in it, and is one of these things that will naturally grow if there is demand. We should like to see more, but I accept that we are a minority.

How much of an original vehicle do you think is necessary to make it a restored example rather than a replica?

Tim – A controversial point! I think that the chassis must be original. It would be very hard to have an all original WW1 truck though, take our Dennis for example. When finished it will be (apart from the body and scuttle) built  almost entirely from original Dennis parts , only the parts come from 7 different WW1 Dennis trucks and a Dennis fire pump. We have also had to make a great deal of replacement parts, but these are all made to the original drawings and would be indistinguishable from the original. I think that what is important is that you do not claim that it is something that it is not.

Steve – As Tim says, I think honesty is the main thing here and the title is irrelevant. The Dennis is not ‘restored’ because it never was. On the other hand, it is not a replica of a Dennis lorry either. It IS a Dennis lorry!

 Tony – Nothing more to add to that – the boys have covered it well.

What would you say are the biggest challenges facing your rather specialised field?

 Tim – Knowing when to stop buying WW1 lorries.

 Steve – Trying to find bronze, worm-drive differentials.

 Tony – Trying to stop the house looking like a Scrap Yard after another Chassis has been found.

Presumably, drawings and manuals are rather difficult to acquire?

 Tim – We have been very lucky here and have acquired a great deal of manuals over the internet. Steve went to work for Dennis just so he could look at their old drawings.

 
Steve – Well not just to look at the drawings. It had something to do with earning a living too. In fact, we bought the Dennis because I soon developed a liking for the company which, for once in its life, was doing rather well. It was just my great good fortune to be able to go into the drawing store and print off a copy of the original linen general arrangement drawing. Dennis, incidentally, is the sole surviving British vehicle manufacturer of that period still building vehicles although Albion still makes axles.

Tony – We seem to have most things that we need. Amongst his many skills, Steve is also a fine draughtsman with an instinctive engineering eye, and once he knows what a part looks like, a drawing quickly follows with an instruction “Make that up”. It seems to work.

If I had the opportunity, I would love to see a fully restored “Old Bill” type bus done out as a Great War troop transport, not unlike the old Airfix kit.. Is there any vehicle in particular you would like to rebuild or recreate?

Tim – There was one of those around for a while, but has now been put back into a bus configuration. Restoring an FT17 would be fantastic. There is still one in Afghanistan if someone would bring that back for me. But I think for uniqueness though I would like to have a WW1 Austro-Daimler 4 wheel drive Heavy Artillery M12 Zugwagen. It has a 20Litre engine (hand crank start) and is about the size of a Scammel Explorer.

Steve – I must admit to having a fancy for a Foster –Daimler heavy artillery tractor. It has the Daimler 105hp straight six sleeve valve engine and is absolutely enormous. Sadly, I know of no survivors. The second thing I would like to recreate is a Great War convoy and that, we might actually achieve. How many vehicles make a convoy Dad?

Tony – I would like a Crossley Tender as used by the Royal Flying Corps. A bit more comfort and probably a bit more speed!

You’re well known for your collection of Great War vehicle pictures. How long have you been collecting and where do you find new examples?

Tim – We have been collecting for about 20 years. It started off with just postcard fairs but now this has been overtaken by the internet. There is also a great deal of luck involved. I was working in Reading one day and stopped off in a junk shop. After rummaging around for a while the owner asked me what I was interested in. After a brief explanation, he pulled out from under the counter a set of about 60 photos taken by a WW1 truck driver on his journey from Alexandria to Jericho. Some incredible photos and I bought the whole lot for £8. I regularly get them out and look at them as I still can’t believe my luck.

Steve – A postcard came with the Thornycroft and that tipped me off to look out for them. I did a few postcard fairs and started collecting but Dad and Tim have since taken over. I found British army vehicles but Tims internet connections have come up with much more exotica such as a Hungarian army Graf und Stift. Can anybody out there translate magyar?

Tony – Post Card collecting started purely as a way of getting information about what Great War Trucks looked like, so that we could have some idea of what we were aiming at in restoring an early army lorry. It seemed to be quite the fashion during the Great War for local photographers to take photos in postcard format of soldiers based in their area, for those soldiers to send home to their families. With the case of the A.S.C., the soldier was often photographed with his lorry – often with the lorry taking prominence and that has given us a huge amount of information.

Are you interested in other periods of MV history?

Tim – Yes, everything that was or is green. I am always amazed that some people can be so narrow in their outlook. We had a Jeep owner turn up one day unannounced to see the Jeep and he was not at all interested in the WW1 stuff, wouldn’t give it a second glance. The Jeep had moved away to Oxfordshire so he left disappointed. There are some funny people in this game.

Steve – Oh, very much so. There are just not enough hours in the day to do it all.

Tony – Yes everything. Having grown up in the Falmouth area during the war and particularly at the time of D Day, there was always a lot of stuff to see around there – particularly American. Later on doing my National Service in the Army, I took my Army Driving Test in a Bedford MW -(it was 13RE80 if anybody should own it now!), I drove Bedford RLs, Austin K9's, Champs and Land Rovers. So yes, all periods interest me and bring back memories.

What do you think of the Great War re-enactors/living history scene?

Tim – On the whole a nice bunch who create a very good impression. We are particularly friendly with Pershings Doughboys the WW1 AEF living history bunch. Some re-enactors are a little bit odd though, but who are we to point the finger?

Steve – As Tim says, a nice bunch of very knowledgeable people. The Doughboys have helped us get the FWD just right and we have learned a lot from them.

Tony – Yes, all good people who want to do their own thing. Live and let live, but I. personally am not comfortable in the thought of dressing up.

Ever tried a British Army rum ration?

Tim – No. But strangely enough “Goslings” is a very famous maker of Bermuda rum and has been made there since 1806. A useful bit of information for you.

Steve – No!

Tony - No – me neither! But I did get run over by a Royal Signals Sergeant driving a Land Rover whilst I was on exercise once – he was already drunk and had a bottle of rum with him to help him see the night through. I was a bit shaken up and could not believe that I got away with only a severe bruising and some shock, but the Sergeant did have the good grace to share his bottle of rum with me!

How do you see the MV scene as a whole developing in the next few years?

Tim – More re-enactors, less WW2 British vehicles, more Land Rovers and that is just a natural progression of the hobby. There is no point is complaining about it, as with all hobbies it is constantly evolving. Overall the quality of restorations has improved. People say that they won’t travel far to shows due to the price of petrol, so maybe local shows will be better attended. Remember though that a litre of petrol is about the same price as a litre of bottled water.

Steve – I don’t see much Great War stuff coming out as it is something of an acquired taste although there is a surprisingly large amount around waiting for some TLC if you look. Probably the average age of MVs seen around the shows will slowly fall as more convenient post-war (WWII that is) vehicles become available and hauling slower, older ones around becomes too much trouble.

Tony – We certainly do not attend as many Rallies or Meets as we used to do. We like our local Honiton Hill Rally which is just 7 miles away from base, so we rather like driving there. Not too expensive, as that is a factor.

Picture this: Jack is at the bar with a wad of notes in his hand…what can he get you?

Tim – Well if it is a wad of notes, I think I will have four pints of Scrumpy Jack and a place to sit down.

Steve – Mine’s a pint of ‘Pedigree’ or ‘Hobgoblin’ please!

Tony – I like “Old Speckled Hen” - my favourite Real Ale and I would happily settle for a couple pints of that and the good fellowship that would follow with it automatically at no further cost!